Welcome And Guest Introduction

Mike Mirarchi 0:19

Welcome to the Toilet Paper Salesman Podcast. My name is Mike Mirarchi, and today I am honored to have Keith Greer on. Keith Greer has 44 years experience as an executive coach, family therapist, and trainer. He's a graduate of Syracuse University in social work and is recognized by the International Coach Federation. He's a professional certified coach. His approach is both strength-based and inquiry-oriented, partnering with his clients as they create awareness, generate action, and facilitate learning and growth. By challenging his clients to develop and sustain new perspectives, attitudes, skills, and behaviors, they experience not only improved performance, but an enhanced sense of connection between their professional and personal lives. So with that, Keith, welcome to the Toilet Paper Salesman Podcast.

Keith Greer 1:10

Mike, thank you for the invite.

Mike Mirarchi 1:12

I'm glad to be here. It's great to have you on. So, Keith, tell me a little bit about how you got started. 44 years in this business is a rich career. Tell me a little bit of how you got to where you are.

Keith Greer 1:25

Sure. So, as you said, I think it's, you know, 44, somewhere 45-ish years that I have been, I say, I like to say in the helping world, that I have been facilitating one kind of helping conversation or another. And in that way, the career has felt very blessed because I've had this opportunity to do some

A Career Built On Helping

Keith Greer 1:45

different kinds of conversations. So, as you said, graduated from SU with a master's in social work. So the my career started in the pretty traditional mental health world. I was a clinical social worker, worked when I first entered the field actually in the world of addiction. I have kept my fingers in that a little bit through the years. Shortly after I got into that, I became enamored with family therapy. And so I went back and got all this training to be a family therapist, opened up my own practice. And for that pretty much the first half of that 40 plus years was in the world of family therapy. And what I loved about family therapy, Mike, and this is very much related then to the move into coaching, is when I entered the field, and as I said, I entered the field working in the world of addiction. And in those days, although thankfully it has changed, in those days, standard practice in the world of addiction treatment was the counselor person knew best. You knew best. You told your clients what to do. If they didn't do it, it was, you know, something was wrong with them. And I remember, even as a rookie in the field in my early 20s, thinking this feels really wrong. Like, who am I to tell someone what to do with their life? But that's what the training was. So, you know, I realize now looking back that some of the interest in moving into family therapy is family therapy was the first place for me that gave me this message that you don't know what's best for the family in the room. You know how to facilitate family therapy. And part of facilitating family therapy is seeing strength or helping family identify strength and different kinds of capacities and strategies in their family life. I love that. Like that felt more in align with what made sense to me. So I did that for a good number of years. And then I started reading about coaching. And coaching was that next step in that evolution of, oh, I don't know what's best for people. And so it was so attractive to me to read about, no, you you ask good questions, you listen deeply, you know, you help increase awareness, um, you identify strength and capacity. You don't know what's best. And one of my favorite sayings to this day, I don't remember where I heard it, but it it rings in my head often, is that when a coach and their client walk in a room together, the answer's in the room, and guess who doesn't have it? The coach doesn't have it. So I went back, got a whole bunch of training through ICF, transformed this clinical practice into a coaching business, and started coaching. And even that has been a bit of an evolution because when I started, I I remember it was so funny. Almost everyone was who was in these coaching classes with me was talking about becoming an executive coach. And I had no interest in that whatsoever. I thought I'd do some life coaching, maybe some wellness coaching. And I did do some of that. And then 13 years ago, maybe, this guy walks in my office. To this day, I do not have any memory of how he found me because the company he worked for and I had not connected yet. And he worked for a very high-end optics company, like Department of Defense, NASA kind of stuff. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant engineer. And he walked in and he told me that, in spite of being a brilliant engineer, he was about two seconds away from being fired because he was so bad with people. And so he and I did some work together for about a year. I was just enjoyable, good, good, good guy. Was able to see that there were some ways he interacted with people that really put people off and started to subtract from the brilliance he brought to his work. So that went well. I can tell you to this day, he is still with that company. But anyway, right after that, the president of that company gets a hold of me and says, All right, here's the deal. We're growing. Company's growing. We need to start putting people into some different levels of leadership. And a lot of people in my company are like this guy: brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, not very good with people. And so they became my first executive coaching client. Again, like 12, 13 years ago. I still work with them. And I just fell in love with this, with doing this kind of leadership work. Because it is so, I mean, to me, it so relates back to some of my work, like working with families. It's a relationship. It's it's a relationship, and you are nurturing a relationship with your team, your family. There are many, many parallels, I believe. And uh, and so that's what I do. I I do this leadership work, and we'll talk a little bit more, I'm sure, about conversational intelligence and what that all means in the world of leadership, but very lucky, fulfilling, fun career over those those four decades.

Mike Mirarchi 6:56

You said a couple of things that really resonated with me. I think one of the things that coaches run into is they feel like they have to perform. And they come in, and I think clients expect that. Clients expect, okay, how are you going to help me? What do you know? Like that, I you know, what do you know about my business? Or what do you know about my family?

Coaching Without Performing

Mike Mirarchi 7:15

Or what do you know? And the your answer is correct. I don't know anything about that, but I'm here to help you and facilitate the answers for you. Uh through deep listening, through understanding the themes that are underlying your thought patterns to help you to get from point A to point B. And and that's really what coaching is. So many coaches run into the performance issue. Do you want to just talk about that a little bit?

Keith Greer 7:38

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. So it's funny, I was having coffee with a colleague of mine just the other day, and we were talking about, we were kind of laughing, how you know, most of the folks who hire us, first of all, don't have any idea what the letters behind our name mean. Because we were talking about like the ins and outs of, you know, do you get certain levels of certification and things like that? You're right on. So I consistently run into people, you know, when I'm maybe talking with someone about coaching or talking about maybe getting hired by somebody as a coach who really do not have an idea of what coaching is. And they tend to either think it's therapy, which it's not, or as you said, that somehow, you know, I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna be Dr. Phil and I'm gonna have all these answers and I'm gonna tell them what their answers are. And it's interesting because when you when you respond to their request for answers without giving them answers, it can be pretty disconcerting for them at first, because in fairness to them, they this is kind of their mindset that they have about what coaching is. Well, aren't you this kind of font of wisdom sitting up on a hill and you tell me what to do? And I I, Mike, all the time, like I don't necessarily break this out the first time I meet with someone, but I have no problem saying to people, look, most days I can barely keep my shit together as a human being. Who am I to think I have an answer for your, you know, whatever your dilemma is? I can, again, I can ask good questions. And what I find in addition to that is, and I think this to me, it's one of the coolest parts of coaching to be a part of this, this type of interaction, is how difficult it seems to be for most human beings to know what their strengths are. They just don't, first of all, I don't think we talk about it enough. Second of all, there's these narratives within our culture that if you identify, you know, what your strengths are, you're being boastful or you're being full of yourself. And so if we don't do that work, if we don't identify what tools are in my toolkit, let's say, then all that's left in our head is that pesky self-critic voice that we all have, which is a part of being a human being. But that voice that says, who do you think you are? Don't step out of side of your comfort zone. If people only knew you, you know, all of that, if that's the only voice, then I understand how people walk around responding to situations in their life thinking, I don't know what to do. You know, maybe, maybe Mike knows or Keith knows. But to see the light bulb go on in this work, where people start to identify, oh no, I do have answers, is it's just such a phenomenal part of the work.

Mike Mirarchi 10:21

Many very talented people don't realize how good they are in certain areas. They think everybody's like that. They just assume that everyone must be good at this. Yeah. And I've worked with some incredibly talented people. And they're they're like, well, what's the big deal? And you go, the big deal is that talent that you have. Hardly anybody else has it. I think it's that realization of you know how everybody is unique and special in their own certain way. Everybody's got gifts and talents and skills on certain things that's just off the chart. But as a coach, it's up to you to help them to discover what those are and then help them to get confidence in their ability to do it. It doesn't mean you're going to be arrogant about them or anything like that. But it's the recognition of the skill and the fact that they are truly special in certain areas. Everybody is.

Keith Greer 11:16

You know, I have an exercise I do with a lot of my clients. I've done it for years. Keep doing it. It's it's not research-based. It's just this silly thing I came up with. But I keep doing it because when I share it with clients and give them the opportunity to do it, it seems to be so difficult for them. So that's telling

The Strengths List Exercise

Keith Greer 11:35

me that there must be some relevance to it. So, you know, in the world of identifying strength, I mean, I've got an online research-based tool that I use that gives people a you know, nice report of what their top 25 strengths are. But I give the following option sometimes to clients. Can you sit down and can you create a list? Just sit down with a pen and paper. Create a list of your strengths, talents, skills, positive attributes, positive characteristics, gifts to the world, whatever you want to call it. And here's here's the key part of this exercise. Can you create a list with as many items on it as you are old? Now, again, that's not based on any research or anything like this. But when you give that last instruction, unless the person is under 10, they look at you like you're crazy. Like a list as long as I am old, you're crazy. And I say, no, try it. But here are the rules. So there's a couple of rules in doing this exercise. One, if you start to write something down and you hear that self-critic kick in and says, Well, Keith, that's not you all the time, write it down. No, no rule says you have to exemplify every strength 24 hours a day. Write it down. If you struggle coming up with a list as long as you are old, phone a friend. Phone several friends. Ask people who love you what's wonderful about you. Now I know that might feel like a funky question, but ask, right? They'll tell you. But here's the most important part in doing this exercise. Because the most important part is not creating a list as long as you are old. The most important part is as you are attempting to, what do you hear in your head? What voices do you hear? What cultural narratives kick in, like that whole boastful thing. Don't let your light shine, people won't like you. Like, and then get curious about that, where that comes from. Because that is what holds you back from just even knowing what are my strengths, what are the tools in my toolbox, what can I call upon on days that suck, right? That I need to move my life in a different direction. It's just such a fascinating conversation because I'm telling you, Mike, I've done this exercise for years and years and years, and I've never had anyone say, Oh, that was the easiest thing in the world.

Mike Mirarchi 13:53

It's hard. You know what? A lot of those thoughts come all the way back to school when you're kids. Because if you excel in something, the kids want to pull you back. And as a kid, if you stand out in a certain area, sometimes you don't want to be special like that. Like, so you want to just fit in with the crowd. So

How School Labels Shape Confidence

Mike Mirarchi 14:14

you'll tend to become mediocre so that you can fit in with the crowd. Yeah. Um, and I think even within a workplace environment, it's true too. You have one or two salespeople that really stand out, and the other salespeople are kind of like, oh, well, you know, they get all the whatever. And it's kind of like, well, wait a minute, they're earning all that. That's because of their skill. It's because of their work. And so you have this. People naturally want to pull you back. As a leader and as a coach, it's really important to help clients to understand that they need to stand out. And as you stand out, you become isolated. It happens. Earl Nightingale, lead the field. I don't know if you've ever listened to that. That's old school. He talks about the success pyramid. And he says, you know, everybody's down at the bottom. And as you rise up the pyramid, as you ascend and as you get better, the air's cleaner and there's not as many people up there. And so what happens as somebody uh continues to gain success and gain confidence and gain the the knowledge from the coaching, they tend to then become a little bit isolated because there aren't as many people up there doing what they're doing. You have to almost get to the point where you're okay with that.

Keith Greer 15:27

Very much so. You know, I tend to think about the world in terms of systems. So what you know, what systems do we interact with that maybe chip away at being in touch with what's pretty awesome about us? So my wife and I are blessed. We have three grandsons right now, about to be seven, about to be five, and two. And so it's been a few years since my kids were that age. So I'm reliving this experience with them at this age, where at this age, they think they're the best thing since sliced bread. Just they're the best. Papa, play with me, be with me, right? Everything about them they think is the best. And I found myself thinking in this, re-experiencing this with them. Where do we lose that? Like, where as we're heading through childhood and adolescenthood into adulthood, do we lose this okayness with being really okay with who we are? Now, I say this with great respect and reverence. I was a school social worker for many years. I think our public ed system is pretty phenomenal given what it is asked to do. But it's a system, right? It's a system like any other system. And so there's aspects of this system that maybe don't always work for people. So you I would make the argument the minute you come into school and you start getting a report card, that starts chipping away at, oh, I'm pretty cool because now I'm getting graded in this very narrow place, right? Academics. If that's not my gig, then it really chips away. Or, you know, if I have a natural aptitude, but it doesn't fit into reading, writing arithmetic, right? That I don't really get to act on that until I'm much older. And I would fast forward even into workplaces, the systems part of workplaces and how they assess their employees, how they engage them in that conversation, isn't always the most productive. And so it isn't surprising. And we're not even talking about our own family experiences, we, you know, with authority and the feedback we got there. It's not surprising that people end up in adulthood and you ask them to make a list of their strengths, and they look down at their feet and, you know, shuffle along. And uh, I don't know how to do that. Um, but it is, you know, I've come to believe it's kind of like the foundation, it's a foundational piece of information if we want to move our lives forward. Is what tools do I have in my toolbox that I can call upon?

Mike Mirarchi 17:48

You're 100% right about school. You know, the kinesthetics get lost from the beginning because the modalities that you're teaching is audible and visual. And so you got all these kinesthetics who are brilliant people in their own way that are lost. They that school's not taught in their in their modality. And so you have these guys, and one person comes to mind, and he was a customer of mine. He was labeled as dumb in school. Yeah, okay. This guy can look at a bridge and uh calculate the circumference just from looking at it. That's how smart he is, right? Yeah, and in his own mind, he didn't think he was smart because his experience in school being a kinesthetic was not great, you know, and so you're losing uh a lot of people out of the system just because of how they learn and they're because they're not being taught. When they have Wood Shop, which I don't even know if they have anymore, when they have votec, you know, that's why a lot of the kinesthetics end up at votech, right? Yeah. But what happens when you're in vote? You're labeled as dumb and stupid, it's seen as secondary. Yeah, exactly. It's you know, I think secondary. I went to vote. Both my kids did. Yeah, in eighth grade, we had to make this decision whether to go to Votech or not, right? Well, for me, I never none of my brothers went to college. You know, my parents didn't go to college. Yeah, so I didn't know what that path was to go vote. And so I picked food service because it was something that was really interesting. Yeah. Well, the next class we had was with a math teacher who said, Well, I guess we're gonna have to teach you how to do a checkbook. In other words, you're not gonna make it, you're gonna be with laborers or whatever. I guess you know, you're just gonna be losers. And uh a lot of votech kids are labeled as losers, that they'll never accomplish. And I can't tell you how many times I was told that in school that you guys are a bunch of losers, you never amount to anything. I was in 11th grade and I decided I wanted to go to college. And uh because I was in vote, all the classes were general math, general science, you know, just general, they're just gonna push you out of school because you know they they know you're not gonna amount to anything in their mind. And so I go to the science teacher, hey, I'm gonna go to college and uh I would like a recommendation. And if you would have seen the look of horror on her face, it was amazing. And so a lot of kids graduate out of high school thinking that they're not smart, that they're not capable, that they can't be successful in a society when in fact they have all the talents and skills of everyone else. They just learn differently and chose a different path.

Keith Greer 20:21

You know, I think we're paying the price um today for having spent um, you know, the last few generations believing that everybody had to go off and get a college degree, you know, especially maybe more so in the white suburbs, um, because a lot of those folks are not doing anything with that degree or are dealing with uh, you know, just the craziness of college debt, you know, still staying somewhat connected to public ed through colleagues, there is a shift going on. There, there is a recognition that the vocational direction is as relevant as a more traditional academic direction. And if anything, when you have difficulty today finding a good plumber or an electrician, and then when you find them and you see what they charge, and rightly so for their skill set, I think it drives home even more that we probably missed the boat for many years behind a bias about what you know what good education means.

Mike Mirarchi 21:15

The adjustment, in my opinion, is instead of just giving them general math, general science, how about teaching them how to start a business and run a business? Most of those guys and gals come out of votech and end up starting their own business. It's a plumbing business, it's electricians, you know, restaurants, it's so how about that? If they can graduate out of high school with a general knowledge of how to start a business, that would be incredible.

Keith Greer 21:37

It would be good. I always tell this story about elementary school, a little bit of an exaggeration here, but based on a whole lot of fact. That, you know, for you know, kindergarten through fifth grade, so four report cards a year, every single one of my report cards for those years had a statement on it. Keith socializes too much. Now I laugh because that statement was not the system celebrating my enhanced interactional ability, right? That was a statement saying, Keith, sit down, shut up, do your work. Mike, it is not a coincidence that I have carved out the career I've carved out. I'm one of those lucky ones who has always said, for me, most days work doesn't even feel like work. It's a natural extension of Who I am. I have always been fascinated with people, pretty intuitive about people, pretty verbal. Even at an early age, sitting around and chatting with my friends held a lot more allure than sitting in my seat and doing reading, writing, arithmetic. And the system, and again, I say this with the greatest of respect because they have a goal of educating me, but the system was not at a place where it could look at that skill set at that moment in my life and say, wow, Keith, this is really awesome how you are with people. I think sometimes a lot of my work is kind of having the honor of helping people rediscover that, of what their gifts are, and maybe even in some cases, really what they were meant to do in the world in terms of their biggest and best contribution.

Mike Mirarchi 23:08

Agreed. I can give you a story that happened to me as well. I'm a deep diver. I'll get on a subject and just go totally deep. And I love just doing it and researching as much as I can about it and learning about it and understanding it. And it could be like ancient Egypt as an example, or we're in a class and we're learning about weather. And they were talking about when it rains and you know, when it's cold and it snows or it rains, and they're talking about that, but they were being very vague. So I started asking questions. And it's like, well, if it's cold, doesn't it just come down as snow? And obviously it's a very complicated answer. It's not simple. And a teacher just shut me, made me feel like I was being dumb when in fact a teacher probably didn't understand how it all worked either. And so there's an example of now I'm I'm a deep diver and I want to learn and try to understand, and I'm being shut down from that. So that it's just that type of thing that happens over and over again. Yeah. Not not to say I agreed with you that the school teachers today and schools today have a real challenging time to be able to teach. Yes. Especially within the the rules that they have to work in. Um and truly a lot of the home situations aren't exactly great. These kids come in and they really have to work with them in a lot of ways that they shouldn't. So again, I agree with you. I have a lot of respect for teaching and for teachers, but man, there's just so much more that can be done.

Keith Greer 24:35

No question. Look, the the other piece that I think, and and maybe to bring it relevant to the work, you know, the work that you and I do today. If, you know, if you think systemically about organizations, one of the things that has always struck me, and this is true in public ed, probably true with every organization you and I work with,

Systems Thinking Inside Organizations

Keith Greer 24:54

is the difference between the motivation of the people who work in the organization and the inertia of the organization. When I think of my time as a student, or I think of my years as a school social worker, I worked with the most amazing, dedicated, hardworking people. I didn't never worked with anyone who didn't want the best for their students. But there's aspects to the inertia of the system as a system that sometimes don't work for students, sometimes don't work for teachers. And so I think the lesson there can be forwarded to the work we do today. I think about this all the time when I work within organizations of the difference between that employee sitting in front of me, what their motivations are, what they're looking to accomplish, and maybe some aspects of the system that sometimes don't work for them, even though the people who run that system are all positively motivated, want the best for the system, best for their company, best for employees, customers. It's just always an interesting dilemma sometimes of the difference between those two. But I found it to be a very helpful way to think about things because what it does is if for me at least, is if I think about things systemically or the inertia of the system, I have less tendency to demonize individual people, right? Or to see them as somehow negatively motivated. Systems are just complicated beasts, um, regardless of the individual motivations of the people who work in them.

Mike Mirarchi 26:25

It's funny because my style in coaching my sales team is you have to sell the way you sell. I sell a certain way, you have to sell the way that works for you. What you works for you doesn't work for me. What works for me doesn't work for you. I can give you all the tools to

Authenticity In Sales And Leadership

Mike Mirarchi 26:44

and the knowledge to be able to sell. I have all that. I can give you the product knowledge, but you've got to figure out the system that works best for you. In allowing reps to do that, it really and all of them do it differently. Of course. Um they're successful in it. And most of them are. Some some can't, you know, some need a system. Some reps need to have a structured system that they can follow. They don't work well for me because I'm more loose. You know, I don't want to micromanage my people. I want to let them do what they do best and develop their own skills to be able to sell the way they sell and give them all the tools and support they need to make that happen. Now, there are other leaders who think that's a terrible idea, that you should follow a system, that you need to have a a set set of rules. And but you gotta look at results. And if the results speak for themselves, then I don't know. Like I if you have a strict system, you're gonna have certain type of salespeople that work within that system. If you don't have a strict system, it opens up the whole world for any type of person to become successful in sales.

Keith Greer 27:50

It would also strike me, and I am not an expert in any way, shape, or form in the world of sales, but it would strike me, I think you would agree, that sales is a relationship and it's a relationship business. So, you know, bringing it around to some of the work I do in this world of conversational intelligence, one of the things we know that other people's brains love, right? That if you exhibit this, other people's brains will perceive you as trustworthy, and that is authenticity, because us human beings have a phenomenal bullshit meter. We know when we're in front of somebody who feels fake or, you know, it's funny because I I often get asked by folks to recommend a, you know, a leadership book or something like that. And I always say to people, all right, so if if you go off and read this, please remember one thing, I would argue in the world of leadership is you have to figure out how to take whatever is in that book that resonates with you and have it come out of you sounding like you. It can't sound like the author, it you can't parrot it because people want somebody in front of them who is real. And from a neurochemistry standpoint, it's a phenomenal strategy in any work where we are in a relationship with somebody. Authenticity, lead with authenticity. Yeah, I'm with you.

Mike Mirarchi 29:05

Yeah. What it's about, you know, show up, follow-up, likable, credible. Those four things, right? They get you 75% of the way. And the rest is sales skills and knowledge. I really want to dig into conversational intelligence. Can you help us to understand what that is, how it applies? So, you know, what is conversational intelligence?

Keith Greer 29:25

Okay, so it's a it's a modality that was created by a brilliant woman

Conversational Intelligence Explained

Keith Greer 29:29

by the name of Judith Glazer. Judith walked in the executive coaching world, although she always considered herself a cultural anthropologist within the workplace. That's kind of how she thought of herself. It's a modality that, while it has some social science pieces to it, the brilliance of it is that it is built on the latest and greatest in the neuroscience world of what goes on in our brain, where, how, when we are interacting with another human being, all around the either the creation of trust, or I somehow perceive you as threat, and then fight flight kicks in. At the end of the day, what I love about it is a couple of things. One, it is science-based. You know, when sometimes when you work with leaders, I've had people say to me, you know, I don't want any of that touchy-feely social worky stuff. All right, fine, right? Let's just talk about science. This is how your brain works. And I always remind people about the origin and the power of fight-flight. So fight-flight came about a bazillion years ago. It is the mechanism I would argue that probably has the greatest to do with why human beings still walk the face of the earth, because it's the mechanism that keeps us safe. And it is incredibly finely tuned. A million years ago, it would keep an eye out for a predator bigger than me that wanted to make me their lunch. Today, that response in the back of our brain, in the limbic system of our brain, every second it is perusing our psychological world, our emotional world, our relational world, our self-concept world, the opinions of others about us world, the social media world, looking for threat. And when it perceives threat, that's what fight, flight, freeze appease is. It perceives threat. In that moment, the brain has one goal and one goal only, and that's to keep this body safe. And so it creates all of these neurochemical and physical reactions that allow me to fight, flight, freeze, or make peace. What conversational intelligence allows as a coach is that I can with a client in very specific ways deconstruct their conversational patterns, strategies, the words they use, the connection or disconnection between their words and their nonverbals. And I can say to people, when you interact with people this way, you are increasing the chances that when your words land in their ears, their brain will perceive you as threat, versus when you do this, this, and this, right? The opposite will happen and kind of close this part of the conversation. A good metaphor for our brain is to think about our brain as an orchestra, and orchestra has all different sections, but all the sections are always playing. At any given moment, a section, a specific section, might play a little louder, which makes it harder to hear the other sections. Doesn't mean they're not playing, it's just harder to hear. So one of the things we know is that when, and this is a simplistic metaphor, but it works when I'm having conversations with folks about the difference between back of the brain and front of the brain. Back of the brain, again, where all this fight-flight stuff is going on, front of the brain, where we do our best thinking, thinking, planning, observing, connecting with other human beings, aspiring, looking for possibilities. When the back of our brain perceives threat and it is playing loudly, threat, threat, threat, it is harder for us to hear the front part of our brain. So from a leadership standpoint, from an interaction with other human beings standpoint, from a team-building standpoint, if people are in any level of threat, they're doing horrible thinking. They just can't think. And here's the example I always give. All of us have experienced this. You're in a kind of an emotional place, you're angry or you're frustrated, and somebody comes up and they try and intellectually talk you out of your feeling. Well, Mike, if you really only understood this, and this is what they were really trying to do, for most of us, all that does is increase our emotion. Because an intellectual explanation is asking us to respond with the front part of our brain, our thinking part. And in that moment, I'm not thinking well. So when you think about teams that have to innovate, a bunch of people around a table that have to innovate, innovation requires a significant level of trust that we can be honest with each other, we can throw out different ideas, we can agree to disagree, we can debate, right? Whatever. If around that innovation table people perceive a lack of trust, they won't speak. And so innovation goes out the window. So that's what CIQ allows is this exploration, in my case, in the world of leadership, of how you, as a leader, from the moment, and by the way, you meet somebody for the first time, 0.07 seconds is how quickly brains are starting to decide can I trust you or not? So you better be on your game right from the get-go.

Mike Mirarchi 34:43

Yeah, first impressions, right? I mean, that is big time. 100%. People make those decisions very quickly, and if it's the wrong decision, you've got a lot of work to do to get that back. Yes, yes. Yeah, that is so true. Let's talk about leadership a little bit. Because I know that I believe that, you know, when I hear somebody say, I'm not a leader, I say, Do you have a pet? Good question. Do you have kids? Yeah, right. Do you have a family? You're a leader. Everybody is a leader. Do you have a friend? Everyone's a leader

Trust Signals And Real Listening

Mike Mirarchi 35:14

in some way. Most people don't believe themselves. Yeah, they don't think of themselves as a leader. And so if we're all leaders in something, then how do we own those skills and how do we get better at being a leader?

Keith Greer 35:27

Look, I do think, like any skill set, you know, for some of us it's it's a bit more intuitive, it's a bit more innate, right? It it's there. Like again, I would argue that's been a skill set of mine for as long as I can remember. It does not mean that it is not a skill set that can't be taught, can't be honed, right, can't be learned. I agree with you wholeheartedly, all of us somewhere are in some kind of leadership position. Or the other, you know, the other way I think about it also is I always ask people, tomorrow I'm starting a, there's this leadership training program I facilitate, and we have our first class tomorrow with this one organization. And I always ask this question, because it'll be a room full of leaders. And I always ask, sometimes apologizing for having to use a sports metaphor, but how many of you anywhere have ever it could be played on a team or worked somewhere, and you were part of a team, and everyone in the room knew who the leader was, and it wasn't the person with the C on their jersey. We've all had that, right? We've all had that experience with folks that, and often the person without the C on their jersey, as you describe, doesn't even think of themselves as a leader, but they are. I would, again, I'd make the argument not putting aside technical skill and things like that. That's relational. It's relational that people perceive other people as trusting. And I want to be on your team, and you know, I want to hang out with you. And and so it is, I do believe anybody, if they're interested in it, can develop the skills or improve their skills in this area. But I'm I'm with you 100%. I can't think of anyone who somewhere in their life isn't demonstrating some level of leadership.

Mike Mirarchi 37:13

And being a leader, I think, is more of what you do than what you say. It's everything.

Keith Greer 37:20

Yeah.

Mike Mirarchi 37:20

You could say whatever you want, but they're gonna watch what you do. Yeah. Watch how you handle a situation, watch how you work within a situation uh that's stressful, or a situation where you're under attack, or a situation, you know, how do you handle that? And if you handle it with grace, and if you handle it the right way, then they're like, wow, that's pretty amazing. And how did he do that? You know, or how did that and so genuineness is the key. So you can talk to talk, but you have to walk to walk. And if you're not walking the walk, then you're you're disingenuous, and that will always people will fall away at that point.

Keith Greer 37:58

Well, we know we know in the world of communication, and depending upon the research you read, sometimes you read, you know, 97%, 95%, uh somewhere in that in that world. When there is a discrepancy between a person's verbal message and their nonverbal message, us human beings 100% of the time go with the nonverbal message. It's just how our brain works, right? So, your point of if there isn't alignment between what I say and what I do, we will always go with what I do. I was having a conversation a couple of months ago with someone who leads their team and was getting some feedback that people on their team perceive them as not always attentive. Right. And as we talked about it, you know, this person, and they were legit and sincere in saying this, that there's times they are sitting right in a team meeting and they have their computer open because they're trying to keep some notes. But people in the room perceive that as you're not listening to me because your eyes are down. And so we, you know, we talked about some ways that he could get around that because I believe he wants to listen. I believe he believes he's listening. But, you know, the other fallacy out there for us human beings is that, oh, I'm good at multitasking. There's not an ounce of research I have read in the brain world that says us human beings are good at multitasking. We suck at it. We think we're good at it, but we're not. We do one thing at a time and then we might do it well. And listening is such a complex skill. Complex skill to listen, to quiet my head so I can listen, to put aside my opinions so I can consider what I'm taking in. It is complex on top of complex. If I try doing it and I'm looking at my computer or I've got my phone in my face, we're not. And so it's not surprising that other brains in the room will interpret this as you're not listening to me, thus I cannot trust you.

Mike Mirarchi 39:52

A lot of people listen to make a point. They don't listen to really understand the other person's saying. They're just waiting for them to finish so that they can go.

Keith Greer 40:00

Yeah. We are well, we've all been at a table with that person, right? Right.

Mike Mirarchi 40:04

You know, guilty as charged. I've done it too. But I'm getting a little better. You know, it's it's something, it's a work in progress always. And it's hard sometimes because somebody will say something and the thought hits you and you want to inject, but you know that you need to listen and really hear this person out. Yes. And and listen for the themes that are going on in their mind, the things that they continually say that indicate where there's a challenge that you can help them with. And it could be anything, but if you're not really listening to them, you'll never pick up on those cues. Yeah.

Keith Greer 40:35

Look, you know, a conversation I've often found myself in, and it's not always the easiest conversation, both as the coach and as the client, because it's in that moment, you're asking someone to really consider to the point that can feel very vulnerable for them. And, you know, vulnerability is an emotional state that most of us human

Being Right, Vulnerability, And Oxytocin

Keith Greer 40:54

beings will do just about anything not to experience. You know, you have people in leadership and they're confident and they know what they're doing. And sometimes that does translate into they can get stuck in the CIQ world, we call it the addiction of being right, right? Like, I'm right, I'm right. And what people don't understand sometimes in a group setting, or even if you're in a conversation with one other person, when you're banging on the table saying, I'm right, what other people are hearing is the other side of that message, which is you're wrong, right? I'm wrong. Great, phenomenal strategy if you want to suck the trust right out of the room. I'm right, or you interrupt people. So what I'm about to say, I believe wholeheartedly, and I say it as someone who, as a human being, I experience my opinions pretty deeply. There's things I believe in strongly. But a statement I have sometimes made to folks I've worked with, and I will admit, Mike, it's a bit provocative. I'm I'm, you know, a little choosy when I pull it out of my coaching toolkit. But when I've been working with that person who can get stuck behind, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, is I will ask them, in this moment when you believe you're right, is there any evidence in the known universe that your right is the only right? Because the answer to that is always no. There's no evidence that anyone's right is the only right. Now, I respect the fact that to you, it feels right. And I'm not minimizing that part. Like again, I relate to that. It feels right. But in leadership or in facilitating a group conversation, or if you walk in and my right is the only right, you shut people down, people won't trust you, and you limit what this team could potentially co-create. So a challenge I sometimes have offered, folks like that, is what would it take to walk into your next conversation with somebody? And your only goal is to walk out of the conversation with a greater understanding of the opinion of this other person, even if it means in this conversation, you don't get to offer your opinion. Your only goal is to ask really good open-ended questions. In the CIQ world, we call them questions for which you have no answer. Good questions. You walk out at the end of 45 minutes, whatever. Oh, oh, I get where Mike's coming from. But Mike, now I get to tell you what I think. Maybe that's another conversation. It's it's a challenging thing to do. We have a tendency, and especially in today's world, of to hold on to our opinions like they are gospel, to assign malicious intent to people who think differently. And I just don't believe there's any evidence that anybody's right is the only right.

Mike Mirarchi 43:37

One thing you talked about is vulnerability. Oof. I believe that vulnerability, if you're able to be vulnerable, it goes to vulnerability. It's phenomenal. It goes goes to genuineness. Yes, it does. In a big way. Because if you're willing to be vulnerable to someone and really share with them things that are going on with you, then you're not perfect. That you struggle with different things. That to the other person, it just solidifies the genuineness. It's true because you are sharing true things, like, hey, you know, I really struggle with that. That's something that, you know, I have a real challenge with. I'm working on it, but it's not something that I'm good enough at yet, and I need to get better. You know, to be there makes a huge difference. In the other person's ability to trust you. And not to say you do it intentionally, but it's really more, I think, as you become more confident or comfortable with yourself than who you actually are. And once you know that it's okay not to be perfect, we all have things dealing with. Everybody's got, we're all in the same boat here to just become comfortable with yourself that I'm not perfect. I have things that I do, I have things I struggle with. Everybody does. And once you get to that place where you're comfortable enough to be able to share those, it changes the world.

Keith Greer 44:54

So in the CIQ world, we deal a lot with the neurotransmitter oxytocin. So oxytocin is the neurotransmitter. So most people, if they've heard of oxytocin, they've heard about it connected to childbirth. It's the neurotransmitter that courses through a woman's body right after she gives birth, that, despite the rigors of giving birth, allows a mom to so quickly bond with her baby. Well, we know in, you know, it has a much greater role in just general human connection, right? So, you know, for any of your listeners, think about the last time you were in a phenomenal conversation with somebody, right? Just really felt good, you felt safe, good. There's, you know, if I could draw some blood right then, you know, we'd find some pretty good levels of oxytocin. Um, so here's one of the things we know, you know, the brain world is when a leader, to your point, when a leader demonstrates vulnerability, now authentic, genuine vulnerability, right? I don't know. I messed up. I apologize. What do you think? Right. When a leader demonstrates vulnerability in real time in that moment, in the brains of the people who witness that vulnerability, there is an increase in the production of oxytocin. People perceive it and experience it on a very neurochemical level as real, genuine, authentic, safe, trusting. It works. And I know maybe especially for men of our generation, giving themselves permission to go there is it can be challenging. It's not necessarily how leadership was taught a few generations ago. But it works. It works because people want a human being in front of them.

Mike Mirarchi 46:35

It works in sales, it works in leadership, it works in life. It's okay, you know, to be who you are. And I think that's really the the theme here. And this has been an amazing conversation. Keith, how does someone get a hold of you?

Keith Greer 46:50

Uh, they can find me on my website, Keith Greercoaching.com, um, or my email is Keith at

How To Reach Keith And Closing

Keith Greer 46:59

KeithGreerCoaching.com. And Mike, what what I would throw out for any of your listeners um is uh if if any of them listen to this and think it might be helpful to reach out to me to just a easy, quick, complimentary conversation on how to bring some CIQ concepts into their work world. Or look, this is relevant around the Thanksgiving table, right? Of how do I stay in productive conversation, loving relationships when maybe there's some really different political perspectives, right? Around the dinner table or something like that. So, you know, what I would throw out is to the first five of your listeners who who give me a call, I'd be happy to schedule a time. We can have a quick conversation about how this works, how it might work for them. I'd uh I'd be honored to be in that that conversation with them.

Mike Mirarchi 47:51

That'll be great. We'll make sure that your contact information is on the podcast episode so they'll be able to get in touch with you. And uh man, it's been a real pleasure having you on. It's a great conversation. Thank you for the invite. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah. So, with that, who says selling toilet paper isn't glamorous? Thanks a lot and have a great day.